Sea Breeze, what is recorded at Luke 14:33 as a saying attributed to Jesus is a very hard saying to emotionally accept (at least for me). It is one of the sayings attributed to Jesus which I consider to be disturbing, like the rich Jewish man (who sincerely claimed to keep all of the laws of the Torah) being told by Jesus to give away all of his belongings to the poor (If the rich man wanted to be "perfect" and inherit "everlasting life") [Mark 10:17-25; Matthew 19:16-24; Luke 18:18-26]. I don't want to give up all of the things I own. I also don't want to give up my living body and I don't want to give up my life either.
Disillusioned JW
JoinedPosts by Disillusioned JW
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45
Does Jesus Live Inside JW's ?
by Sea Breeze inexamine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.
know ye not your own selves, how that jesus christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
- 2 cor.
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Disillusioned JW
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45
Does Jesus Live Inside JW's ?
by Sea Breeze inexamine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.
know ye not your own selves, how that jesus christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
- 2 cor.
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Disillusioned JW
Hi carla. It is OK to me that you are convinced that JWs are not Christians.
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45
Does Jesus Live Inside JW's ?
by Sea Breeze inexamine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.
know ye not your own selves, how that jesus christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
- 2 cor.
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Disillusioned JW
carla, numerous dictionaries and encyclopedias in their entry about Jehovah's Witnesses say they are a Christian sect (or a Christian denomination or a Christian group), and thus say the religion is Christian. A number scholars even say the ancient Gnostics were Christians.
A number of surveys of religion, including specifically of Christianity, also classify Jehovah's Witnesses as Christians. For example, https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/26/a-closer-look-at-jehovahs-witnesses-living-in-the-u-s/ says "Jehovah’s Witnesses identify as Christians, but their beliefs are different from other Christians in some ways." Notice it didn't say they different "from Christians', but rather "from other Christians", thus saying they are Christians. The article also says "Like many other highly religious Christians, Jehovah’s Witnesses tend to take conservative positions on social issues."
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2011/12/19/global-christianity-exec/ says "Other Christians, such as Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses, make up the remaining 1% of the global Christian population."
The following is a clarification of what I said in a prior post regarding my words of "'in regards to what the WT has lyingly said of so-called apostates (that all of them lie about the WT), I didn't know such was the case until years after I became baptized." By that I meant that I didn't know (until many years after my baptism) that the WT was lying when it said that all apostates (that which the WT calls apostates of the JW religion) lie about the WT. I learned years after my baptism that many apostates in their attacks of the WT's teachings accurately quote WT literature (without misrepresenting the quotes), instead of lying about the WT.
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45
Does Jesus Live Inside JW's ?
by Sea Breeze inexamine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.
know ye not your own selves, how that jesus christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
- 2 cor.
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Disillusioned JW
Sea Breeze, regarding you comment of "Demons believe the same and shudder. Are they Christians too?" my answer to you is as follows. The difference is that JWs (including me when I was a JW) worship Jehovah God and most JW's (even including probably the governing body of the JWs) do their best to do what they believe is God's will. Furthermore, the difference is that JWs love Jehovah God and Jesus Christ and are loyal to them (at least they believe they are loyal to them) and they hope of becoming blessed by Jehovah God, including attaining eternal life (whether in heaven as a spirit being or on Earth as a perfect human being). Regarding the demons I no longer believe they exist (as you know), though I realize that the Bible says they exist and that the Bible says they believe in God and shudder.
Regarding the claim of "They literally lie through their teeth publicly on street corners and say that they do believe and teach this stuff" I don't know if that is true, except perhaps in regards to a very small percentage of JWs. When I talked to a couple of JWs (I spoke to each them on a different occasion) I thought that one of them was lying in some things he said, or was possibly very deluded. I thought the other person was deluded in regards to one thing she said. I never said (such as when witnessing for example) the WT teaches something I knew it didn't teach.
I notice you said the following. "Only you find out later after baptism that they lied to you. Then, it's too late. By that time, they have their hooks into you and your family." In regards to their doctrines pertaining to what the Bible teaches that wasn't the case with me, since I was taught the JW religion from infancy (rather than from JWs witnessing to me in field service) and thus I studied the WT literature for years before I became baptized. However in regards to the WT's mishandling of quotes of many scientists (and of some other other sources) and in regards to what the WT has lyingly said of so-called apostates (that all of them lie about the WT), I didn't know such was the case until years after I became baptized.
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45
Does Jesus Live Inside JW's ?
by Sea Breeze inexamine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.
know ye not your own selves, how that jesus christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
- 2 cor.
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Disillusioned JW
Sea Breeze, I realize that WT has a number of teachings which disagree with the what the Bible says about Christianity, but they also have a number of teachings which agree with what the Bible teaches about Christianity. That latter include the following: Jesus is the son of God; Jesus is the Messiah and the Christ; a kingdom has been promised to Christ, Christ will execute judgement, a number of Christians will rule with him and serve as kings and priests during the time that Satan will be in the abyss for 1,000 years, and that Jesus is the mediator of those who will serve in such a capacity; that through Jesus Christ everything (and everyone) in existence; other than God the Father and Jesus (and the holy spirit?); came into existence.
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Does Jesus Live Inside JW's ?
by Sea Breeze inexamine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.
know ye not your own selves, how that jesus christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
- 2 cor.
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Disillusioned JW
Yes the WT teaches it, except they claim those Christians are not true Christians and except that the WT excludes themselves from the group. But I view the WT and JWs as also being a part of Christianity (and even within Christendom, for they teach Christ's kingdom) and hence are also part of the division within Christianity. In regards to the WT and JWs highly protest-ant nature against other Christian religions, to me they are clearly Protestants despite the WT saying they are not Protestants and not a part of Protestantism.
I am familiar with the claim of Christians being united in the essentials and the claim that such is enough, but I strongly think more unity in many more beliefs is required if Christ is truly leading Christians. A number of atheist authors promoting atheism also share this view of mine, and perhaps I learned it from them.
Sea Breeze, I wasn't promoting self-abandonment, nor speaking of it in my prior post. I was not saying I never wanted the presence of Christ or God to be with me (provided they are outside of me), though I didn't want to go the heaven. (Furthermore, I was fine the idea of some of Jehovah's power working within in to help, for in a number of prayers i asked for God to help him accomplish certain things, him giving me the strength to be a better Christian.) Instead in my post I said I didn't want them inside of me - that is a big distinction. Likewise in regards to what I said about most JWs and possibly most non-evangelical Christians.
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1985 and baptism...I wish I had read this before today
by enoughisenough ini am posting a link as to being legally bound to jw rules at time of baptism.
i only did a quick skim, but what i gathered is interesting, and what it says about 1985 may be of use to some hoping to just fade and not be bothered.
in 1985, the questions were changed at baptism for legal purposes so they could have causation to defend themselves should you decide to sue for whatever reason.
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Disillusioned JW
When were the words "spirit directed" taken out of the oath of baptism and is such reflected in a revision of the book called Organized To Do Jehovah's Will? I have the first edition (from 2005) of that book.
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45
Does Jesus Live Inside JW's ?
by Sea Breeze inexamine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.
know ye not your own selves, how that jesus christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
- 2 cor.
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Disillusioned JW
What Smiles says of Jesus Christ not really being n the midst of multiple believers meeting in hiis name, makes a great deal of sense. That is because if Jesus Christ was present among Christians gathered together in his name, then the various groups of Christians wouldn't be doctrinally divided, yet they are greatly divided doctrinally and into numerous denominations and sects of Christianity. Such doctrinal divisions among Christians have existed even since the first century CE (as even testified in the NT letters which are attributed to Paul).
Furthermore, Jesus is definitely not being present on this website. If he was then the Christians gathered together on this website wouldn't persist in disputing with each in doctrinal matters, for they would have "the mind of Christ" (a term of the Apostle Paul) and thus be doctrinally united.
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45
Does Jesus Live Inside JW's ?
by Sea Breeze inexamine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.
know ye not your own selves, how that jesus christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
- 2 cor.
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Disillusioned JW
A relevant question to ask within this topic is the following. "Do JWs want Jesus or Jehovah to live instead of them?" I think that if JWs (and maybe even non-evangelical Christians in general) were to think about the idea of Jesus or Jehovah/YHWH (God the Father) living inside of them, then most of them would dislike the idea, but perhaps I am wrong about that. I do know that I at least sure wouldn't like the idea. I would not want any other person, even Jesus or YHWH, living in me and hence possessing me. I also never wanted to live in heaven, instead (before I became baptized, later while I was a JW, and still later while was an independent Christian) I wanted to live forever as a human in paradise on Earth. -
34
1985 and baptism...I wish I had read this before today
by enoughisenough ini am posting a link as to being legally bound to jw rules at time of baptism.
i only did a quick skim, but what i gathered is interesting, and what it says about 1985 may be of use to some hoping to just fade and not be bothered.
in 1985, the questions were changed at baptism for legal purposes so they could have causation to defend themselves should you decide to sue for whatever reason.
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Disillusioned JW
I also was baptized before 1985 while I was a minor, but from what I have read in other forum topics of this web site, the WT (at least the USA branch) will not grant an annulment of the baptism if a baptized JW applied on paper for any task in the organization while an adult. For example if a JW applied for auxiliary pioneer service, regular pioneer service, or Bethel service, while one was age 18 of over in the USA, then the WT would say the person voluntarily chose to increase one's JW responsibilities while one was an adult and thus wanted to remain a JW. Likewise if one accepted an appointment to be a ministerial servant while one was age 18 or over, or even continued to do responsibilities in the Kingdom Halls (such as handling the microphones) after one became 18 years age. It was announced in my congregation when I was age 19 that I had become a ministerial servant, though no one had asked me if I wanted to be a ministerial servant. Furthermore, prior to the announcement to the congregation no had told me I had been appointed as a ministerial servant. When I asked an elder why I became appointed as a ministerial servant without first being asked if I wanted the appointment he said the overseer (I think he said the circuit overseer) said that is the policy. He also said people can turn down the appointment after it has been made. I didn't turn down the appointment, but if I had been asked beforehand I might would turned down becoming appointed.